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GhostofJ
2020-06-21
  Ship Balance Update Dev Server  

The following changes are live on the development server. Note these changes are not final and feedback posted on this thread is welcome.

No changes at this time, come back later!

Edited by GhostofJ on 2020-06-28
3Sigma
99+ day(s) ago
Pholus seems to be on-par with Nirvana, Dominions, Xe, Aragonite, New Topaz offensively.

So, I don`t think pholus nerf would be the right way to go about it. Like it has been mentioned here, Chiron could maybe do with some hull reduction or the like.
GhostofJ
99+ day(s) ago
The details were here for about a week, I`ve moved them to the other thread today.

Edited by GhostofJ on 2020-06-28
BigGMobZ
99+ day(s) ago
Sorry just noticed it’s on another thread
BigGMobZ
99+ day(s) ago
Will the changes be detailed? I just see that you said there is an update but haven’t displayed them here yet.
GhostofJ
99+ day(s) ago
These changes will be made live on Sunday.
GhostofJ
99+ day(s) ago
For this set of changes I am avoiding any explicit nerfs primarily because I would like to see how this set of changes (combined with the coming income rework) impacts the existing viral dominance. That said, I do think certain neutral ships in particular could use some nerfs in the future to allow for racial options to shine a bit more.
Zero
99+ day(s) ago
.... although then pholus just gets replaced with javelin in the defensive stack and the viral gets almost the same defensive capabilities. So is the problem really pholus? I don`t think so.

I think the actual problem is that there just isn`t enough ship diversity. Why do pholus/pike each x half the guard roster? Well there`s 13 base ships and half of them have similar shields/weapons. Then of course the ship with just the right stats would dominate them. Atm you can sort of fix this by taking neutrals in the mix but then if neutrals fill in the gap for these races too well (a la sword, axe, jav) then why have the racial weaknessess in the first place? But on the other side, I don`t think there should exist any race that can`t do it all offensively (viral/maru). But like maru is gated with income and poor defence, there should be a similar gate to viral`s offence as well. Simultaneously, viral shouldn`t have the godlike defence like it has atm.

Coming to the proposed ship changes:

I agree with most of the changes. Guard changes are a big plus. Li is now properly usable although I`m not sure if quartz is good enough still. Not just from stat perspective but it`s too similar to agate/corundum/diamond purposewise. Maybe change it`s wep? Needs a purpose rework or more finetuning depending on current purpose. L class changes are fantastic. Guard looking juicy.
Ryu and herc are great terran offense is now more rounded. As is miner`s. Lictor RF gives the oomph miner offense needed (parallel to nirvana for terran but diff wep). Miner and terran both looking really exciting.
Cuda is a bit underwhelming. Needs a stat adjustment or Maybe give it LR again.. range to 8? I`ll have to check further to give a more definitive suggestion. As one might look at cuda and think it`s a counter to monitor or kalieum but it really isn`t that good vs either. Maru has better options for both.
Zero
99+ day(s) ago
some thoughts:

Viral ATM is a bit strong no doubt, and on live the divide between viral and the rest of the races is apparent. Although I don`t think it`s as severe as some may think - it is significant nonetheless. I`m curious if the income changes can bring forth a meaningful divide races based on which the ship dynamic can be justified.

Regardless

I think for viral the biggest problem isn`t pholus, it`s chiron. Chiron is absolute terror to deal with. Here`s why
RF to chiron was really really big. Granted it shouldn`t be shark territory, it shouldn`t be the best defensive ship either (that never, or barely ever loses 1v1 all the while soaking damage like a champ). I think it should be somewhere between post proposed change li and current corral at best.

I`m hesitant to call pholus an overtuned ship. In a vacuum, pholus would be a completely acceptable ship for viral. ATM it`s kind very comparable to Xe but just like Xe alone isn`t enough for guard when looking at the rest of the guard arsenal, pholus seems like too much when looking at what other options viral has for it. Seems unfair doesn`t it? A race gets to have guard level of defense or even better (on live) while having. Which is kind of why I`m wondering if the income changes can cause significant enough of difference between races where you can have one ship be really good at fighting but struggle with income while another would be not so good at fighting but be really good income wise (or even other variables like digging).

Anyhow, if the income changes don`t work - if pholus absolutely needs to be tuned down - the correct way would be to work on its defensive capabilities. Just enough that it isn`t so non chalantly usable defensively, all the while not being unusable defensively. My suggestion? Drop it`s kin shield to 0.175 as a start. Keep it`s offensive capabilities (well that`s what viral is for right?), nerf it`s usability a bit defensively (that`s honestly enough to remove it from o
killerimps
99+ day(s) ago
I`ll save starbases as a whole for another day :P I think starbases show more flavor than anything else because of their limited use and would like to see that applied to more ships being taken away from virals RE list (or maybe ships added ;))
killerimps
99+ day(s) ago
start bottom up for this one squad LOL
killerimps
99+ day(s) ago
I think thematically Marauder is the most offencive of the races, I just wish a few more ships weren`t REable by virals so it could have this defined a little more.

Guardian:
Whoa talk about an overhaul. I think the changes you are making are spot on what guardian needs. More versatility overall to the race and bringing a lot of offencive options back is just what they need to make them less sad about their recent changes.

Collective:
I think at lower PR to mid PR collective will be a terror with how much easier capturing ships is. Will have to get more players to confirm my suspicions, but I`m almost positive collective will be a terror to players under 10bil pr.

Neutrals:
F. Axe and F. swrod too. I think these ships are pretty balanced as they are in terms of a defined role. I don`t like seeing them fill gaps that races have in their own ships though and would rather see changes to make these more of a secondary option rather than a go to.

C class: C class as a whole took a big hit. C class was really good for 2-3 things. Defending at lower pr with "the c class wall", using as spam dummies, or using as VM op at max PR. I think the changes to it were very clever because it now means that people have to actually counter with their dummies when spamming, it gets rid of the c class wall and opens up race specific ships for lower pr play (I heard there is going to be a change in attack range for lower pr which makes this a perfect change to address the C class wall being the only viable strat).

Large runner: I think large runner falls into the same issue as sword and axe. Should it be a go to counter over race specific ships or should it be a secondary ship that`s there to fill in gaps when needed. I think one of the only reasons we don`t see this ship more is the existence of Kings being so overwhelmingly good.

King: This ship`s existence causes racial ships to be balanced around it and I think that is a core design flaw. This ship needs a redesig
killerimps
99+ day(s) ago
AMINER (cont.)

G.Livid: This ship kind of falls into the same category as apollo in my mind as a fantastic flanker with a few good counter match-ups for stacking. The only differense within the scope of terran vs aminer is that Aminer has Baekko(M.Lakko) arguably the best defensive flanker ever designed by man or gods. That kind of limits Livid`s identity and being REable by viral also limits what this ship can do. I think thematically it makes sense for Viral not to RE this ship since it`s technically guardian and to change it`s design to something more racially flavored.

G.Licto (input)r: I think with recent changes giving this RF it really rounds out the Aminer arsenal into something that`s no joke and really brings the race together as a very versatile and most complete shiplist out of all the races that aren`t Viral. I don`t think it will be "op" but I really think the Aminer shiplist sets a gold standard for future changes and how to define a race. Aminer- Versatility

VIRAL:

V.Pholus : This ship is currently very strong. It falls between the lines of offensive and defensive so much that it`s currently being used for everything from spams to stacks to OP to flanks and mid stacks. I would agree that Viral needs a strong ship that can help define their versatility that isn`t from another race and I really think Pholus accomplishes that void. It does have a very strong weakness, but I think that weakness (or strengths) should be toned down if not a little bit. I think hitting it`s shielding is the right way to go on this one.

Marauder:
e.Pirahna: I think pirahna`s problem is pretty simple. Why use pirahna when you can use Fallen. It`s literally better at everything pirahna does. You could argue a situation where you need to use both, but doesn`t that highly limit the usefulness of the ship as a whole? Living constantly in Fallen`s shadow must be a depressing place to be lol.
killerimps
99+ day(s) ago
Terran (cont.)
p.Thor: With the recent changes to Sword and Axe (much needed for OMs and races with poor kin options) Thor has kind of been left at the wayside as being just a less better option to deal with everything except Strafez King. I think Thor should get it`s shielding changed to not match Axe and Sword`s weaknesses and strengths. Of course you could just nerf axe and sword and buff racial kinetic ships (probably better idea overall) but I think it would still be more useful of a ship with different shielding match ups than a neutral class.

A.MINER
m.Hal : M.Hal I think has been perfectly balanced, but that`s the exact reason it isn`t seeing much use. There are straight up better offensive and defensive ships than it in aminer`s shiplist alone. It does have niche uses, but in the scope of Aminer ships it kind of just falls into the middle ground of being ok at everything but not great at anything which kind of makes it undesireable to use in the current meta. I`d argue that M.Hal is the exact reason "balanced" ships aren`t currently meta and aren`t seen as good ships. Could you attack with it? Sure. Could you defend with it? Sure. But why? What`s it bringing to the table that isn`t brought better by other ships?

A.Aragonite : with recent changes aragonite I think has easily slipped into the "Big 3" ships in the game with nirvana and pholus. it`s a "jack of all trades master of all" ship right now and is probably the most versatile ship in the game. However with Aminer`s current ship line-up I would say a ship that functions like this is needed. It really helps define Aminer as a great defensive race, but maybe a little too much. Perhaps removing RF or nerfing shielding or hull would help this ship find more of a defined role rather than every role.
killerimps
99+ day(s) ago
On that topic I also think making more ships into dreads/juggs to keep them out of Virals hands would be a great move for ship design as a whole. As it is now you have to tone back ships that provide racial flavor at the mercy of Virals just REing it and being very strong. I think Viral is just straight overtuned because of this right now.
killerimps
99+ day(s) ago
These changes definitely fill in gaps these races have. I think another positive change would be to nerf Strafez King in some way (I`m thinking shielding) and perhaps have more slight buffs to racial chemical ships that may need it.

There are some ships that I would call "lackluster" or "overperforming" atm. This is more from a viral perspective because I`m looking at the ships comparatively to every race instead of comparatively to just the ships within a race.

Terran:
T.Maru seems to have lost it`s purpose from a defencive standpoint. Offensively it looks fine, but defensively there are much better options right now that are just outright better like sentouki and now Herc and even Kal. I can imagine a stack with it, but not without giving up a statistically better option

T.Nirvana, although not exploited by anyone yet, I think was pushed into the "slightly overtuned" range with recent changes. At least on paper it can be very successful against over half the ships in the game according to the public test sim. Terran needs a jugg/dread that can define it as a race and I think nirvana really does help define the race well so I`m hesitant to call it overtuned when in theory it should be.

p.Apollo is one of the strongest racial flankers in the game and is incredibly useful defensively by letting you have it at a lower PR than most ships while maintaining effectiveness making it hard to flip while at the same time being fantastic for wiping OP. But it makes it a very one dimensional ship that isn`t really needed by terran at all to be successful at defending or wiping OP. Perhaps it`s fine as is because it has a clearly defined roll within the scope of terran`s arsenal, Perhaps having this role be exaggerated a little more would make it a more interesting ship. Nerfing shields and buffing weapon maybe? Split weapon type? I think it`d be really cool and thematic to make this ship have more racial flavor and make it so Viral`s can`t RE it.

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